16 - In Conversation with... - Maro Itoje
Last month, The Soulstice Collective had the privilege of interviewing England, Saracens and Lions rugby player Maro Itoje. Having first met in a creative arts space quite separate from a rugby pitch, we were keen to further kindle this original encounter and discuss a wide range of topics including Maro’s upbringing and values, his views on racism and equality and the current state and future of rugby. It was an absolute pleasure to chat to him and we hope you enjoy this special profile piece.
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We start by discussing Maro’s heritage, upbringing and the values these have instilled in him. Both his parents were brought up in Nigeria but spent periods in the UK during childhood, through holidays on his mother’s side and schooling for his father. After meeting they moved over permanently to start a family in London in the early 90s. For Maro, never living in Nigeria has not prevented an intimate connection to the country. “I can’t talk about myself without mentioning Nigeria. Its culture has shaped me, it’s influenced me, it’s a way in which I see the world, it’s a crucial part of who I am.”
An essential part of upbringing is education and within seconds our conversation turns from Nigerian values to Harrow, the all-boys public school in North West London renowned for its tradition, “Britishness” and privilege. The sudden change seems reflective of the unexpected overlap and clear polarity of these two worlds. “Even to other private schools Harrow is just different…the uniform is unique, it has its own set of independent traditions and customs such as greeting teachers. It took a while adapting to that.”
Harrow School, London.
Harrow School, London.
Harrow School, London.
Despite this, Maro affirms that the encounter did not necessarily entail conflict. “Navigating that space and being Nigerian was not too different from my other schools where I was amongst the minority which was the norm.” He points out that Harrow had more international students than his previous schools, particularly from regions of Africa and Asia - perhaps more obvious on reflection once the initial stereotype is hurdled. “It was actually very multicultural, despite the stereotypes,” he remarks, rightly wanting to reinforce a breakdown of any preconceived ideas.
School is not the only space in which contradictions might arise and we progress to discussing other spaces where a coming together of worldviews might cause issues or compromise his identity:
“From a sports perspective, I think environments need to give enough space for individuals to show who they are and express themselves freely, however, all of that needs to be done in the constraints of a team. You want individual flair and creativity but it has to be in the confines of the team.”
Acknowledging that there might be cultural conflicts in certain areas - even with simple things like food choice - he affirms that to foster a team’s prosperity and success there must be a balance.
Having discussed school and sport we touch on a third core component to Maro’s identity: his family and home-life. ‘For those whose parents don’t originate from this country there is always a balancing act. My household growing up was very Nigerian: how we spoke, how we interacted, values, traditions. Step outside of that, you’re in England. That space is different with different rules. There is always that back and forth which such individuals have to wrestle with.’ Such a dichotomy will read familiar to many children of West African descent.
It is clear Maro has consistently ensured to balance different influences and not lose the positive impacts they have on his life. Essential to this is fostering his creative interests whether that be doing photoshoots for Ralph Lauren, speaking at Soho House or starting his own podcast ‘Pearl Conversations’. Balancing such ventures and handling the household reputation it ensues could be a distraction from the prime focus: rugby. “You always have to focus on the craft, whether it’s a different sport, business or in the creative world. I pride myself on being professional, making sure I’m prepped to give myself the best chance to perform and improve. With that said, I’ve always had interests that reach further than the rugby pitch, things which captivate my mind and engage me.”
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Family support seems integral to Maro’s success such as through finding this balance. “There was zero pressure from my parents to play rugby… They cared that I enjoyed it but did not make rugby the most important thing I was doing. I didn’t feel restricted to just rugby.” This lack of restriction evidenced through his breadth of interests and pursuits.
The polarities and diversity of his upbringing justify the conclusion: “I like exploring different spaces, engaging with different people and getting to know different walks of life” which are clearly integral to his character and success so far. Seeking self-improvement and learning from others extends beyond the rugby pitch, even beyond the UK, with Maro adding that he draws inspiration from American athletes. “Look at Shaquille O'Neal acting in movies, DJing at international festivals. LeBron James being a businessman, a social justice campaigner but still both exceptional athletes.” The arts, business and social justice are all things Maro is publicly interested in, and it makes one wonder how these will continue to feature in his life - both during and post playing rugby.
Evident throughout our discussion is his pensive and reflective nature which gives us the chance to touch on what might come after his playing career. It is clear that there will always be some connection to rugby but perhaps not down the coaching or punditry route, maybe in the business side. “That being said, I’m very open to all opportunities and the world will be my oyster. Once the train ride stops, I’ll have to evaluate.”
We return to the topic of Maro’s podcast ‘Pearl Conversations’. With a range of guests including Leomie Anderson, Alastair Campbell and Ric Lewis, we were interested to ask about the motivations behind the podcast and his choice of interviewees. Being an avid podcast listener was a driving force towards creating his own but “I didn’t want to be on there just talking about rugby…I wanted to have conversations with different people I find interesting. If I have an engaging conversation with them then hopefully it will be for others as well. That’s why I tried to get as wide a net as possible.”
Audio creativity is not the only medium in which Maro has featured, having been a part of his cousin Beno Obano’s project ‘Everybody’s Game’. The Amazon Prime documentary aims to raise awareness and encourage diversity in rugby for BAME individuals and different socio-economic backgrounds. It is fantastic in raising the awareness, but when discussing what more can be done, Maro thinks it is only the start:
“It’s a two-fold approach. I think the rugby unions can do more to be more wide-reaching but also some cultural norms and beliefs might conflict with rugby. A lot of African families are deeply religious and when it comes to Sunday, it’s church; that’s non-negotiable. As a culture we need to wrestle with this; As a Christian, of course I’m not saying put rugby ahead of church but I’m sure there’s a median to be found.”
He notes also that across African culture, a quality education is widely viewed as the prime focus and to many parents “everything else almost seems a distraction” to getting good grades.Though acknowledging that this is not necessarily wrong “it is not either-or” and a balance can be found.
Elaborating on the first strand, the responsibility of the institutions, Maro appreciates that with rugby not being the dominant sport in the UK, it has to “do more than other sports to gain support, attract fans and entice a variety of players.” When compared directly with football, Maro points out, the differences are evident but the “RFU and clubs can do more to go into communities they don’t usually go into - outreach initiatives in state schools without rugby programmes.” He also comments on how he feels rugby could market itself better, “be more dynamic, more encompassing and targeted at getting different people to join.”
The context of this makes far more sense when considered through the lens of ‘Everybody’s Game’, and understanding the different nuances meant by ‘targeted’. “[Ellis] Genge was going at it from the angle of class. I was looking at it from more of an angle of culture, background and ethnicity,” says Maro. The documentary features Beno, Ellis, Maro, Anthony Watson and Biyi Alo who are all of BAME ethnicity, but understanding their respective backgrounds, and how they can all combine to influence the individual will be integral to success.Such changes cannot happen overnight and are long-term, however, the conclusion is clear; if this is done effectively “the winner is rugby. There will be a wider pool so more competition for places, more fans and more profits.”
A clear testament to his diverse character is the fact that 40 minutes in, we’ve covered so many other aspects of life aside from Maro’s own rugby career. We progress onto the past year as a professional athlete and adjusting to no fans in stadiums, covid protocols before games, disrupted seasons. “It’s been different, weird and unusual but it is what it is and you have to crack on and adapt. Personally, I’m looking forward to having fans back but it didn’t take me too long to adapt.”
Reflecting on the first lockdown and the numerous uncertainties the pandemic has brought, there is gratitude to just be playing again. “There was a point when we didn’t even know when, how or even whether rugby would come back. We’re blessed to be in this position to be able to play and do our job. There are so many people who don’t have a job at the moment.”
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In discussing past times such as any TV or music to help during this difficult time, unsurprisingly the initial response is that he has kept himself busy whether rugby is on the agenda or not. Still, he finds time for some series such as Netflix’s Bridgerton and the Batman prequel series Pennyworth on Amazon Prime.
Focusing back on the playing, with the Six Nations round the corner, we explore the behind closed doors element generally, honing on the effects for such a physical sport, particularly in his position as a forward.
“Across sport as a whole, there has been much more variation in performance. Some players feel less accountable because you don’t have someone there immediately shouting or praising you. Personally, it hasn’t really bothered me and I want to be the type of player not dependent on external noise or influences to motivate me. I want to be the type of player that is self-motivated whether there are fans, no fans, coach, no coach, best team or worst team.”
Such an attitude is fitting with his character and the person we’ve been talking to so far; driven by what he believes is best for him and his own interests. In a period when introspection is almost unavoidable, it is an admirable approach that many can learn from.
We rewind to Japan, November 2019, a different time when empty stadiums would seem an incredible prospect. South Africa’s victory of the World Cup was more than just winning a game but a message to the nation and society as a whole. Sport can be a catalyst to change the world and the team’s diversity must be a symbol to all; captain Siya Kolisi embodied this message. The story resonates with Maro as he recounts Prince Harry consoling the squad in the changing room after the game as a “great team and story to lose to” but it’s absolutely clear it will not diminish his personal pain or weaken his winning mentality. “It still bugs me and it probably will bug me until we win one ourselves. I know Siya, he’s a friend, and the story is amazing. But as a competitor and rugby player I didn’t want them to win at my expense.” Reflecting on this we thought back to his phrase earlier in the conversation; Maro’s craft is rugby, and the ultimate reward of this craft is winning a world cup. Fortunate enough to have a long career left, one hopes that such success is in store for the future.
We were keen to ask Maro about the future of rugby, particularly among young people. With ever growing concern over the danger of the sport and 2003 World Cup winner Steve Thompson suing World Rugby over brain damage, we ask what must change to ensure the sport not only thrives but even survives. Maro first expresses sadness and condolences for anyone who has suffered such injuries from the game and hopes that they receive the treatment to recover as well as possible. To overcome such problems in the future, for him a culture change is necessary. Thinking back to earlier playing days he points out the “noble” view around receiving hard knocks and players “never wanting to be seen as letting the side down.” The attitude shift around this is already happening and must continue.
On top of this, the structural changes must do the same. “As professional rugby players, we are more protected than we ever have been. Each team has a game day doctor, an independent doctor and the referee. Any one of the individuals can take a player off. But younger players probably do not have as much protection as we do.” To mitigate this, for him everyone must stick to the guidelines, referees and managers respect their duty of care, coaches teach good technique and “don’t try and be a hero. Get off. There’s no negotiation.”
Examples such as the 2019 Rugby World Cup show that sport should have the power to bring positive change to the world but sadly it can be a platform to expose disgraceful elements in our society. Chatting at the end of a week when several cases emerged of racial abuse towards football players via social media, we ask what more can be done not only in rugby but across sport to bring about the necessary goals.
“In terms of tackling racism as a whole, that’s a huge question.” In line with his well-thought out and considered views shared so far, after pondering over where one can begin, Maro highlights the importance of the individual. “Individuals need to acknowledge their biases and thought patterns which aren’t acceptable. Once they acknowledge that, then it is easier to tackle the bigger systematic challenges.”
Proceeding to point out the ubiquitous presence of different biases in everyone, he stresses that it must go deeper than just pointing the finger at them. “It is about acknowledging them. When it comes to systems and institutions, they are made up of people, then people make decisions which turn into institutional racism. It always starts with the people.” Such a point cannot be repeated enough when dealing with racism - education and accountability.
“It is a big question and it’s not necessarily a question that one person has all the answers to. It’s a collective effort which needs to be pushed.”
Finally, our parting topic is Black Lives Matter and the worldwide protests. What has been evident throughout our interview is the different environments Maro operates and thrives in and we ask about his experiences across them after such striking events.
“There was genuinely a surreal feeling; I’m sure in a few years there’ll be a movie on this time period and the effect it had on the world. It was a moment of introspection, anger, dismay, a little bit of hope ironically. I think it had an effect on everybody.”
Talking more specifically, he commends his club Saracens for being “proactive” and taking “strong views in their response” but points out the inherent issue with several institutions and companies wanting to “be seen to do the right thing as opposed to doing it and living what they’re preaching.”
The social hub of the changing room and squad environment became a place for lots more positive conversations, honest questions and understanding different points of views. It’s reassuring and encouraging to hear that Saracens fosters such a culture and the squad members reacted to use it for good ends. His final point is representative of someone who throughout our chat has displayed a drive to constantly learn from others and be sensitive to many walks of life. “Talking can only be positive.”
Evidence of his genuine interest only becomes clearer when the interview finishes and we immediately become interviewees. Maro is keen to ask what we are doing in our lives, and more importantly whether we are enjoying it.
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It was an honour to speak to a fellow Nigerian who is many things to many people: a true professional, role model and household icon; it was crystal clear throughout our discussion why he has achieved such great things by the age of 26 and a true privilege for Soulstice Creative to showcase it.
Maro and his family. Credit: GQ.
Maro and his family. Credit: GQ.
Maro and his family. Credit: GQ.